How to Identify and Treat Math Anxiety in Learners| Dr. Aditya Nagrath

We talk with mathematician and computer scientist, Dr. Aditya Nagrath, about why students avoid math even when they are capable and how confusion can harden into anxiety over time. We focus on treating math anxiety by rebuilding understanding, reshaping beliefs, and using practical strategies that teachers and parents can apply right away.

• math anxiety as a cycle of stress, self-doubt, and avoidance
• early comprehension gaps in quantity and math language
• manipulatives and play as the foundation for number sense
• inclusive strategy of believing in students, telling them, and meeting their level
• the basketball analogy for adjusting difficulty without lowering standards
• “Elephant Age” and measuring progress through core concept mastery
• AI in education as a support for personalization, planning, and objective feedback
• students need authentic experiences for real understanding
• changing how we handle incorrect answers to build healthy persistence
• STEM readiness and why projects must match a child’s current skill level

Learn more to empower kids with math:

Book:  Treating Mathematics Anxiety: Inclusive Strategies for Working with Students Exhibiting Mathematics Anxiety

Website: Elephant Learning

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Math Anxiety And The Avoidance Cycle

Dr. Lisa Hassler 0:19

In many classrooms, students aren't just struggling in math, they're avoiding it. And it's not because they can't learn it, but because somewhere along the way, math stopped making sense. And for many students, that confusion turns into something deeper: anxiety. Welcome to the brighter side of education, research, innovation, and resources. I'm your host, Dr. Lisa Hassler, here to enlighten and brighten the classrooms in America through focused conversation on important topics in education. In each episode, I discuss problems we as teachers and parents are facing and what people are doing in their communities to fix it. What are the variables? And how can we duplicate it to maximize student outcomes? Math anxiety is more than frustration. It's a well-documented response that can interfere with the student's ability to process numbers, solve problems, and fully engage in learning. And what makes this especially important is that math anxiety isn't always tied to ability. Many students who experience it are fully capable. But when stress and self-doubt take over, it becomes harder to think clearly, recall information, and apply what they already know. And once that cycle begins, students often start to avoid math altogether, which only reinforces the problem. So the question becomes: how do we move students from avoidance to confidence? Today's guest, Dr. Deachan Nagrath, focuses on exactly that shift. Dr. Nagrath is founder of Elephant Learning and author of Treating Mathematics Anxiety: Inclusive Strategies for Working with Students Exhibiting Mathematics Anxiety. His work centers on helping students overcome math anxiety by addressing the underlying comprehension gaps and belief systems that make math feel inaccessible in the first place. Welcome back to the brighter side of education, Dr. Nagrath.

Dr. Aditya Nagrath 2:15

Hi, thank you for having

From Talking About To Treating

Dr. Aditya Nagrath 2:17

me.

Dr. Lisa Hassler 2:17

So in our last conversation, which was January 2025, we spoke about elephant learning and all that you're doing in that area of mathematics and anxiety. We talked a lot about how mathematics anxiety develops. And in your book, you move beyond understanding to treating it. And I understand it's in its second edition. So can you talk about that shift that led you to focus on solutions using inclusive strategies?

Dr. Aditya Nagrath 2:42

Sure. Yeah. I mean, just talking about math anxiety is maybe not enough. And so, like, we have to have at Elephant Learning strategies. I know you talked about the book, but like we're we're also running a learning company. We have to have these strategies to mitigate the anxieties as they pop up. And both the students and the parents, what we noticed that caused us to do all this work was that like parents would give reasons as to why they want to cancel that just don't make a lot of sense in the context of the conversation. So, like, we don't like the sound of the voice, but you could change the voice, the underlying issue, which is that we're talking about elementary school students and the games that they're playing, the activities themselves. Well, they're the activities that researchers found to be most effective at teaching the mathematics. What it actually is is the experience that the student has to have in order to understand the underlying mathematics. And it's not like human beings don't do this out in real life. So, like in the grocery store, if I say, give me five bananas and then get me four more, and how many do I have? And it's like, yeah, that kind of play with your child, it's important and it helps them solidify that idea of more to the addition, right? Right. So now if I got a parent blowing up because the child's throwing a fit, then there has to be from our end some way to help mitigate that. And so we ended up saying, like, okay, why don't we get them in with one of our coaches? And then, of course, we need to have a process for those coaches in order to coach these parents in those situations. And so then we have a set of tactics for them to write down as a book. And now in the second edition, we're trying to add in the tactics that we've gained since then. So here are tactics that you can use when you're working with the student who's exhibiting mathematics anxiety. And now it's up to the coach to figure out in the moment which tactic is the best tactic.

Why Gaps Start In Kindergarten

Dr. Lisa Hassler 4:34

One of the ideas that you're discussing is that a lot of the students don't fully understand their math teacher from the very beginning. Can you explain what's happening there and why that gap starts so early?

Dr. Aditya Nagrath 4:46

Sure, yeah. So, like four out of five students start kindergarten unprepared for the kindergarten curriculum. And what that boiled down to was a misunderstanding of the words of the quantities. When you're talking about something like the colors, you can't really describe red to another human being, let alone a three-year-old or a four-year-old. They have to then actually go and play. And that's what the research shows: manipulatives, right? So, like it could be manipulatives in real life, it could be manipulatives on a screen. If you can play with them and count them and see them as different objects, now you're generating this sense of quantity. The challenge is that if you don't understand the teacher and you keep getting moved along without that understanding being there, and you and you develop the coping tactics to do it, then you're going to experience anxiety because human beings just experience anxiety whenever we're in a situation where like we don't fully understand what's happening. So, like if you go to a new industry conference, if you switch jobs and they they start talking about reports and they're using the acronyms. The question is, do you believe you're going to overcome that? And so, like, that's that's really kind of the key to both the anxiety and the understanding. So, like, we ended up putting together these activities along with these algorithms that are able to just determine what level does your student understand and move back and forth so that we can build them up. And the way we describe this in the book is through the basketball analogy. Right. So it's like there's a hoop and it and it just kind of keeps moving up slowly and it moves down slowly. And so, like, we're just trying to keep it at the level where the student can throw, trying to build them up so that they have enough language that when they enter algebra, they're not blown out of

Believe Them Then Meet Their Level

Dr. Aditya Nagrath 6:30

the water.

Dr. Lisa Hassler 6:30

Absolutely. You talk about inclusive strategies in your new work that you're adding into the second edition. What does that look like in practice for teachers in the classroom?

Dr. Aditya Nagrath 6:40

The uh the overarching strategy is the most important because any tactic that we present that you're then using later on has to fit within that overarching strategy because if it doesn't, then it's not gonna work. So the overarching strategy is first to believe that the student can do it. Second, to tell the student that you can that you believe they can do it. And then the third is to meet them at their level of understanding so that then they also start to believe that they can do it. They can see, I understand this, I understand the next thing, and so on and so forth.

Belief Systems And The AI Analogy

Dr. Lisa Hassler 7:13

Your work also connects to how students learn at the brain level. What happens neurologically when a student experiences math anxiety?

Dr. Aditya Nagrath 7:21

Yeah, I don't remember anything like that. Everything we do over here is philosophical because I'm a mathematician and computer scientist. And so, like what we did was we looked at the underlying model of what happens. This is a very, very high level of what artificial intelligence is. And I'm presenting it here because in the 1970s, the mathematicians kind of came up with this. We didn't have the computing power to actually make the AI. This wasn't like an intellectual necessarily breakthrough, though there was some computer science type algorithm type stuff that allows AI. But basically, what you have are these inputs, these outputs, a function in the middle, and then you have a training function, which is trying to take where the inputs are supposed to go and alter the function so that that's that's what's happening. And the example we present here is on your iPhone. If you brought up the camera and you started pointing at the kitchen, it says that's an oven, that's a refrigerator, that's a so on and so forth. The input is the image, the output is the word, and a training function would then make a new function. And the hope is that when you give this function, it is through the continuity, right? That's the technical term, you're hoping the continuity of F sends similar inputs to similar outputs. So that looks like an oven, and the AI says that's an oven, right? Right. Okay, so the scientists in the 1970s that designed that mathematical model based that on what they thought human beings would represent. And so if you philosophically ask yourself for a human being, what are the inputs and what are the outputs? And the inputs are our experiences, our five senses mixed together, and the outputs would be the meaning that you associate with the experience. And you get to choose the meaning. If you're trying to play piano, if you're trying to play basketball, the student's belief system boils down to I can do this or I can't do this. And everything after that is some sort of justification to the system as to why their belief system is true. And that's why our job as the coach is to keep their belief system on the I can side. And that's what you see basketball coaches doing, that's what you see tennis coaches doing. You got it, right? Like you just have to practice, you just have to practice. And that's true for Matt. And that's what I mean by everything we do is philosophical.

Dr. Lisa Hassler 9:45

It's see where as the inputs change, then the experiences change. So if you're telling them, I believe in you, you can do this, and then you're giving them things that are at their level, then those experiences become true, which then feeds that expectation and reinforces confidence in themselves and what you're telling them to be true. So yeah, okay.

Dr. Aditya Nagrath 10:07

And that's where the basketball analogy makes perfect sense now. You bring the basket down to where the where the ball's going in the hoop, and then you start inching it up from there.

Treating Anxiety With Elephant Age

Dr. Lisa Hassler 10:15

What does it mean to treat math anxiety instead of managing it?

Dr. Aditya Nagrath 10:18

Well, in this case, it's the the understanding, them seeing the ball go into the hoop as the hoop is going up. And so the way we do that with elephant learning is this elephant age. There's all these standards, there's 50 different states, there's n number of countries, and the standards are are slightly complicated in nature, and they don't necessarily have the connections between them. And so we decided that we would not look at the standards in order to do this, but rather we would look at what are the essential topics they're learning, how are they connected together, and will they be able to do these ancillary topics that are typical in these curriculums if we're able to get them to understand that core concept? But we did have to connect it back, and that was the elephant age. When would they learn that in the classroom and assign an age to it? And now the student can actually see themselves progressing versus the other student. Over the course of the three months, they see the one year happening and now they're gaining the confidence in themselves. But of course, you know, with teachers, they can replicate exactly all of this stuff. It's just a matter of finding a way to do it.

Dr. Lisa Hassler 11:23

It's it sounds a lot easier to say, well, I'm just gonna identify their gaps and I'm going to fill the gaps and then we're gonna move on. Because not only does that take time, but then do you have the right assessments in place to be able to identify those gaps properly and then be able to have the tools and the time to be able to actually fill them adequately while they're still marching along, they're still going to school every day. And the current curriculum is still an expectation for that grade level, which is why it makes us a good supplementary partner.

Dr. Aditya Nagrath 11:51

Right? Let me give you an example. All right. A student that understands addition, they're gonna be able to understand addition with money and on the clock way faster than the student that doesn't quite get the concept as yet, because you're adding another abstract topic on top of an already abstract topic. And so the goal might be is like, well, let's get them to practice with some real things, right? So they can see the use. They really do have to kind of understand that that idea of more and quantity before they can get to that.

Where AI Helps Math Learning

Dr. Lisa Hassler 12:18

You've explored how AI can support teachers. Where do you see AI being most effective in helping students with math learning?

Dr. Aditya Nagrath 12:25

Well, so like with math learning and especially the levels that I'm talking about, it's challenging. I think with upper level mathematics, it's a challenging tool because, on the one hand, it's showing some capability to reason, it's showing some capability to pull out tools or formulas or ideas to help the student. But the idea of the practice of the mathematics, meaning, can I go out there and identify that the derivative is the solution to this problem, or the integral is the solution to this problem, which, you know, when you look at physics, that's what it is. Like, oh wow. So we're accelerating at this rate. What does that mean for my velocity? Well, it's the integral in this case, or it's the derivative of the inner of the velocity to get the acceleration. That's it's the actual philosophical definition. You see what I mean? So, like, there's a difference between the AI telling you that and you kind of digging down and understanding that. And and so that's scary because it requires the student to have the motivation to learn on their own. And we all know that's not always there. No. But then, like, as you get higher up into the levels of, you know, like what is it that you're trying to do? From an academic perspective, AI is amazing. Like, I've been told that like some schools are reporting a problem a problem. Students maybe don't want to take computer science right now because what? I'm not gonna have a job when I get out. And at the same time, as a research computer scientist, I think now is the best time to be alive. And maybe even as a research mathematician, because you can bounce your ideas off of the AI. But like as a computer scientist, right? If I'm trying to design a new algorithm or something faster, right? Well, the AI will implement it for me. I'll be able to see it working. Whereas before, that was a project. That was like, well, it's gonna take me a month to implement this, and I'm gonna write it up. And like, how do I even get test data? I'm gonna have to make that up. And now it's like, just do it, let's see it happen. By the way, I AI, let's write the paper afterwards, too, right? Like, you remember what the L was. I told you what it was. And so, like, it's the best time alive to be a research computer scientist, and yet no one wants to do it. So I I don't know, right? Like, it's it's a very strange time to be alive because of what the AI is capable of, but this is where the student has to be vigilant, where the student has to say, I have to have those experiences myself so that I can truly understand you know, either what the AI is telling me or the teacher's telling me, or et cetera. They have to try to go after it themselves. They have to be self-motivated.

Using AI To Deepen Relationships

Dr. Lisa Hassler 15:02

How can teachers use AI as a support tool? So if they're exploring different AI supports within their classroom, how can they use it and still maintain their relationships?

Dr. Aditya Nagrath 15:13

Well, so like AI, I think, will help them foster more relationship because of what you you'd be able to accomplish. So, like I got AI helping me with my student. When I get the spelling list from the teacher, I hand it to AI. I ask AI, could you look at the words here? And then I ask my son Elliot, hey, what do you want to read about today? He says Fortnite. I said, Hey, AI, could you make me a story about Fortnite? Use these words in it, put the definitions on the bottom, right? And I'm just crafting it to exactly what I want for him to start learning those words for what he's got to do in fourth grade. So it's just like, yep, but print this. I go pick it up from the printer. He just sits right over here. He does it, he reads it. And then, like, for example, he's supposed to do those for spelling. Hey, you got the list already. Could you give me a quiz? Use every single word. I want three versions misspelled. I want one version spelled correctly, randomize it so it's not always the same answer. He needs to identify the correct spelling. So it's like, can you first identify the correct spelling? Then can you produce the correct spelling? And so, like, this is time-consuming work. Now I get to use more of my time to have relationships with the student.

Dr. Lisa Hassler 16:23

I think it would increase the relationships as well when you're like, I really love dogs. Great. We're gonna tailor this little lesson with dogs in it. Another word.

Dr. Aditya Nagrath 16:30

That's exactly what elephant learning was, right? We we have 114 different characters that run the activity. The activity is the same, the thing that you're counting is different. And so that was kind of the idea. Even when you're talking about, like, hey, maybe we can try to help find the level of the student, right? Maybe it's like, could you talk with the AI for a moment? Maybe, maybe he can understand. Because a lot of the understanding stuff is one-on-one work. And that was really the problem, is that they end up in the 504, and then it becomes very maybe too rigid because then the heuristics have to be followed or something goes wrong. But at some point, the heuristics have to change, right? At some point, the student has progressed and they no longer need it. And you need a third-party objective viewer to look at it, and AI can do that, right? Like it doesn't have any stake in the game.

Rethinking Wrong Answers As Practice

Dr. Lisa Hassler 17:21

For teachers who are leading some math anxiety in their own classrooms, what are one or two changes that they could make that would have the greatest impact?

Dr. Aditya Nagrath 17:29

The biggest impact is is the way we treat the incorrect answers. And I think that like the real challenge is that like we see sometimes that students may be getting hurt or or feeling bad and we start to try to protect. And that's that's the incorrect strategy, unfortunately. Yeah, think about it. If they're playing basketball, you're like, well, it's okay that it didn't go in. It's kind of like it went in, it's not gonna work. You're just gonna tell them, shoot again. You got it, right? Or you're gonna try to connect it, correct their technique. And that's why the basketball analogy is so powerful, right? Because the idea that the ball's not gonna go in every single time, that's built into the game. Michael Jordan did not make 100% of his shots. It was the percentage of shots that went in that were high through practicing. It didn't even start out that way. No one starts out with 100% of the shots going in. And so that attitude towards like this idea of wrong and being wrong, the children are already kind of blowing up because of that. I remember when my kid was in preschool, he was with uh with this other kid, and he was like it introduced this idea of bad, and these guys were just flipping out, it's bad, it's bad, and it's like, oh my god, right? Like just take it easy, right? And so, like the idea is if we can move from wrong or bad or whatever towards like the ball just didn't go in. What's the big deal? Yeah, right. Then you can you get this idea of let's just keep taking shots until the ball starts to go in. Let me try to alter my approach until the ball goes in. And now we got healthy growth around this idea of answering incorrectly.

When Early Math Clicks Long Term

Dr. Lisa Hassler 19:04

Now, if math instruction is right early on, what changes for the students long term?

Dr. Aditya Nagrath 19:10

So, what the research shows is that the education system tends to work for exactly those students who come in understanding the teacher. And the problem is, is that's just philosophically true. If I don't understand the teacher, the education system's not going to work out so well. But I'd say that given what's happening with AI, given what's happening with the world right now and how well that's working, it's more important that you understand. And if we have that level of understanding at all levels, I think our education system could actually speed up. There's no reason why. I mean, we we've had four-year-olds coming into our system learning fractions since 2018. It's not beyond them. It's just a matter of did you learn the things that lead up to it? And if we could do that, then it could be that we're having way more advanced conversations, either with AI or teachers in the classroom at the high school level. And I think actually the children will engage with that more. When we look at the summer programs that the students engage with the most, it's when they're actually making some sort of meaningful difference that they can see, right? I built a car, I built an airplane, it was these concrete engineering or science projects that required math, it required STEM. And the student has got something physical going on in front of them. And that's how I came up to. I was able to find projects to work with the computer science and the math that I was kind of doing in my hobby time and build actual things that I could then see and use. And so, like, it makes

STEM Projects Only Work When Ready

Dr. Aditya Nagrath 20:44

sense.

Dr. Lisa Hassler 20:44

Now we're pulling STEM all the way down. Preschool. Do you think it's a better outlook, maybe, for students to be able to apply and to understand math concepts younger?

Dr. Aditya Nagrath 20:52

Well, so like, I mean, the real the real challenge is like the they have to get the project at the level where they're ready. We've we've definitely had the experience of where we've gone and bought some STEM toy from my kid. He wasn't ready, my wife's doing it, he's getting the credit. That's not necessarily the right solution either. And so, like, I mean, sure, that builds confidence, but it also builds the anxiety because they internally know that they didn't do it. And so, like, if you say replicate it, I'm now scared. I didn't do it the first time, right? And so, like, photo the ideas, yeah, exactly. The ideas are the ideas have to be introduced at the time that they're ready for it, right? And so, and I say I say, like, hey, look, it's okay, you're just not ready for it yet. You'll get there. And so I don't know like what the ramifications of pulling STEM down to kindergarten are per se, because it depends completely now on implementation. But I think that those experiences where they're dealing with the concepts directly at an experience level, those are the things that they feel most confident about, right? Because, like, no, I saw this happen, I experienced this thing happening, right? Like, and that's why the manipulators are so powerful. When I have four and then I get five more, there's always nine things every time.

Dr. Lisa Hassler 22:10

Imagine that.

Dr. Aditya Nagrath 22:11

Every single time. And so then, like, that's that's the training for the human being, right? When I showed you the thing. Like that's right. The engineering process is yeah, have the computer keep modifying the function. But for the human being, it's like I gotta keep having that experience over and over and over again. And now I believe it, and now I understand it, and now it's internalized. I I believe it to be true, and that's that's what's the important part because then that's that's true confidence.

Why Math Matters More With AI

Dr. Lisa Hassler 22:39

As a mathematician, when you think about computer science, do you think this is an exciting time to be able to address these mathematic challenges that students are facing?

Dr. Aditya Nagrath 22:47

I mean, I think it's an exciting time to be working with students because you you just don't know so much about how things are gonna end up. Though it's clear that one thing is true. Now the computer, which it's a mathematical tool, whereas the true power of it maybe wasn't utilizable by most human beings. Because, well, okay, I needed to do this thing, so you gotta go hire software engineers to now make that happen. Now the AI can help you make that happen, right? And so that's what I'm saying is that like if you're a physicist, this is the greatest time to be alive. If you're a marketer, this is the greatest time to be alive. If you're so really now it's about one, honing the craft, but also I think very importantly is honing the mathematics behind it, because I know when the AI is gonna wry, but like I don't know when the average person would determine that the AI has gone awry. You still have to be able to describe very carefully what it is you want. And that's where I'm saying is like, well, okay, but if I haven't had the experiences, and this is exactly what you're seeing in the marketplace right now. The the students coming out of college maybe don't necessarily have the job. But the senior engineers, they love AI because they've had all these experiences. They know exactly, whereas these people haven't had those experiences. So it's like I gotta know the math, and then I gotta be able to apply it appropriately. And ultimately, that's what STEM is. The engineering has always been applied mathematics.

Books Links And Final Takeaways

Dr. Lisa Hassler 24:16

Is there any last words that you would like to leave for our listeners?

Dr. Aditya Nagrath 24:20

Well, sure. Yeah, like if you want to learn more about anything we're doing, go to LFMlearning.com. If you want to find the treating math anxiety book, it's just on Amazon. You can just search treating mathematics anxiety. And I appreciate you for having me again. Thank you so much. I'm glad I'm glad I was here to share this stuff.

Dr. Lisa Hassler 24:35

Yeah, me too. It's great to see you again. And it's always a wonderful conversation on math anxiety and things that we can be doing and to be more mindful of it and to be creating those relationships to increase confidence and reduce math anxiety at home and in our classrooms. Thank you.

Dr. Aditya Nagrath 24:51

I appreciate you. Thank you

Share Subscribe And Support The Mission

Dr. Aditya Nagrath 24:53

guys so much.

Dr. Lisa Hassler 24:53

If today's conversation resonated with you, consider sharing this episode with a colleague or educator who is working to better support students struggling in mathematics. If you have a story about what's working in your schools that you'd like to share, you can email me at Lisa at dr lisaarhassler.com or visit my website at www.drlisaarhassler.com and send me a message. If you like this podcast, subscribe and tell a friend. The more people that know, the bigger impact it will have. And if you find value to the content in this podcast, consider becoming a supporter by clicking on the supporter link in the show notes. It is the mission of this podcast to shine light on the good in education so that it spreads, affecting positive change. So let's keep working together to find solutions that focus on our children's success.